A debate has been going on lately about the current generations and whether they are good or they don't even deserve to get the free education they are getting, in my opinion, 85%-90% of the students in those college don't even deserve to be there for the following reasons:
A- Students in colleges like Arts, Law, Commerce, etc.
- Most of them care only about what they will be wearing tomorrow, and how to approach the other sex, and how to get the most recent mobile phone and stuff like that.
- They don't have any idea what they are doing in this college.
- They don't have any plans for their future.
- They hardly succeed in the college.
- They graduated without any much knowledge about the issue they were studying.
B- Students in what called "Top Colleges" (i.e. Computer Science, Medicine, Engineering, etc), I'll be talking about Computer Science but I know that this issues apply on the other colleges from my friends inside them:
- When you find a student who took a place in the college and doesn't even like computer (actually he/she hates computer so much!!!!)
- When learning programming and computer science for him/her is only for the sake of getting higher grades.
- When he/she is in his final year, and doesn't even know a very primitive terms like Object Oriented, break point, #include, namespace, dynamic link library, linker, etc (I am not talking about the meaning that you can get by typing define:word in Google, I am talking about understanding it).
- When their graduation project is anything as long as it gives them more grades.
- When they do the same subjects' projects without even looking into the code (just get the code from anyone).
- When they ignore anything related to the field as long as it doesn't give them any additional grades.
- When they look into anyone who do anything normal as a "genius".
- When reading for them means "shit".
- When talking with them in technology means that you either "a geek" or just "showing off" even if what you're talking about is really nothing!
I know that the system itself sucks, but I am talking about a specific issue, now knowing the fact that we got a percentage of about 10%-15% successful graduates from these colleges, then now we know that anyone could succeed inside, so if you failed, it's your fault.
Now to the poll question, do you agree with these issue and that they actually exist or not?
17 comments:
Unfortunately, It's true
you're right.
btw, I believe they deserve to have the chance to go to college though...
Why?
Why they took the place of someone who deserves it better than them?
Why we spend money on people who don't do anything with it?!
Give me one reason why they deserve it!
that question will keep ringing :) you are 100% right i see people go to college to become TAs ,TAs for crying out loud how can someone like this become a TA!! when they hate programming and when they learn it they learn Java or C# ( not saying that Java or C# are bad ) but they learn how to use the api/libs so they can make webzites ( and this is not a typo ) we have tendency to stress the letter 'S' until you can't tell if it's a 'Z' or 'S' so webzites,databaze,bashmondez..etc
back to the original point we have this saying that says "abo balash katar meno" they get the highest college( with no reason that these should be called higher!) they grades in thanwya ama can get them el mawdoo3 este7'sar mesh aktar they are thinking like i spent 2 years memorizing stuff let's spend more 4 it doesn't matter for these people whether it's it's linkin park new song lyrics or code they just scan it and store in ram until they exit the exam room after that they reset :) i dare you if you can find me 1 student in CS that knows what is the name of the C++ inventor, try it ;) when you ask a TA what's the meaning of the VS icon he tells you a "ribbon"!!!!!!!!!!!
it's unqualified persons teaching unqualified audience sir i think education theory here that if you put punch of monkeys with one senior monkey in a room you can have some kind of code out of the process :D but what do i do i'm another one of them "Student" or as our Head of CS Department Dr. likes to call us "7omar"!!!!
I know this kind of people, when you ask them (TA kind):
Do you have the technical and scientifical background to handle this position?
-NO
Do you have any experience on teaching people?
-NO
Do you love teaching people?
-NO
So why you're doing this?
-To get master degree and PhD.
OK, and after you get your PhD, would you have the enough background to become a professor and teach people?
-NO
Would you even like teaching people?
-NO
It's like this wanna have PhD for the sake of having PhD, it's like a goal not a way or a tool that they can use to do other stuff!!
For me as example, I love teaching sooooo much, and I know that I am good in it, but it's not just like this!
Mahmoud, I think you have some sort of bitter regrading TAs. Actually it seems that most of the students and the TAs are "7emeer", perhaps you are the only one who deserves to be a CS student.
But please don't get offended if I told you that you don't even know what is meant by computer science. So you think it is just about coding, and you think that the true computer scientist is the one who knows "the name of the C++ inventor" and "the VS icon"!!
The school of CS is not the appropriate place to learn technologies and development tools; it is concerned mainly with science. Computer science, in particular, is more about mathematics than about programming. So, a question about the time complexity of an algorithm that has a space complexity of O(n lg n) would be more related to CS than a question about "the name of the C++ inventor". Can you tell me why R-trees are better than B-trees when dealing with image databases?
These are the true questions to be asked to a CS student.
If you don't want to learn all of that you'd better invest your time attending courses in a professional training center. Of course, learning technologies is all what you need to do if your ambitions are confined to getting a job or if you just want to enjoy programming.
And regarding Meshref's comment, I would just say that a professor is not merely a teacher. His responsibilities involve scientific research, advising graduate/PhD students, teaching, giving talks and acting as a referee for scientific conferences and journals.
Many of the great scientists were bad teachers. Of course, I am not comparing our professors to those scientists, but I am just clarifying the actual role of a professor.
No Hatem, you're missing the difference between a Researcher and a professor, not every professor must be a researcher.
But let's assume it's true (at least outside Egypt), what reseaches are you talking about in Egypt?
Can you give me only 3 examples for such researched done by professors in Egypt?
Can you give me only 3 examples for such researched done by professors in Egypt?
Well, I can't give you even one example, sadly!
true hatem CS is about problem solving but CS is 3 Tiered college Theory,Algorithm and implementation if you can't do all 3 then you are not a true CS and since people here take books and memorize them then theory and algorithms are easy but but you come down to code this is the most misunderstood layer of them all coz you didn't get through the first two layers in the first place you just got them memorized but when you try to apply in real life problem you get code like spaghetti so it's a process
a. Math (from thanywa 3amma Ya right!)
b.theory
c.algorithms
d.implementation
if you don't go from a to c how do you expect people will be when they do d?
:D
forgive me but i thought if you are @ D level you are supposed to be already done with a through c and you sound like the Dr. that calls us the "7moar" when he says it's all math or "core CS" how come he talks on core when we are in 3rd year! he taught us network as core as he thinks the out come we never wrote 1 line of code never used socks in other words is was an engineering course ( ya we been to the whole thing from the signals in the wires to the protocols ) i felt like i'm in communications or something. and regarding the question yes i can because it performs faster when it comes to spacial data because of it's structure and can get the common operation faster like searching and querying the database using the data in the link between the nodes ( child node pointer and bounding box for example ) hope that answered your question :)
Mahmoud, I am not defending the "all-theory" approach. What essentially concerned me with your first post is that you was qualifying your colleagues based on how much they know about technologies and programming tools, such as C++. Maybe you also considered math and theory in your mind, but your post gave me a different impression.
Knowing about some technology, tool or programming language doesn't make you a better CS graduate, or even a better programmer, even when considering implementation as an important skill for a CS student. Programming concepts (such as object orientation, patterns, good coding practices and so on) are technology-independent and usually language-independent too.
I agree with you that teaching theoretical subjects without practicing programming is a very bad approach. However, I also believe that teaching "programming tools" is not the main target of a CS school. There is a wide range of "implementation concepts" to teach, rather than "implementation tools". It doesn't imply that programming tools are not important, and it doesn't also imply that your networks course was taught correctly, but learning C++ and .Net should be your "own" task. The college is giving you the concepts, even when it comes to implementation skills.
Maybe we are thinking a like but expressing differently :)
One last point to mention here .. my question about R-trees wasn't a kind of challenge :D I was just giving an example for a good CS question :)
what I mean is that they deserve it because they took responsibility in secondary school and that's what lead them there, it's the system's fault that let's them pass the exams, They deserve to be taught a lesson and fail when they're not ready or don't know enough about the material. some doctors just give half the final exam in their last lecture as important stuff to study!!! you know it happens. it's the system's fault that lets them pass. even when they graduate, they won't be ready for the business world. and that's also the system's fault!. that's what I mean...
May be these are the reasons why professors & TAs (in FCIs specially) are not what u look up for:
1. they come from other disciplines..they are not FCI graduates..they are engineering (may be not even from a Computer Dep. (thu I don't consider those good enough to teach FCI students)..sometimes even from faculty of Commerce!!!!!!!!!!!!may be when we are professors (I mean the now-mumbling-students) it would be better if the next problem was solved.
2. Research is not a career in Egypt..that's why those guys are not real researchers...not even good as "programmers"...they lake the "process" u talked about Mahmoud..(I just need to note that to be a CS researcher u might not need to go all the way to point d...u may stay @ c & start expanding horizontally)...so they look for some other work beside their academic work...but they are not probably even working in the field directly (remember they are from different disciplines)...so they are not dedicated to us..or even to research...they are too busy looking for "lo2met 3eshhom"..
3. Generally I don't get the same image of TAs u get..generally younger TAs who are into FCI are thinking the same as the ppl who commented on this post are...they are waiting to become professors to make it better (if waiting is a solution anyway)
@shady, actually I don't agree with you:
1- May be this was correct 10 years ago, but now there are a lot of TAs who graduated from the same college, and many of them are not in the level.
2- If it's not a career, then why they choose it and mess with people's lives?!!
I see that many master degrees research topics are just like any topic which can just bring them the master degree, like those students who choose any graduation project just to graduate!!
3- Not a must, I am telling you, about 70%-75% of them will turn to be the same professors if not worst
I'll give you an example for a TA who was in my college and she was a graduate from the same college (FCIS Ain Shams).
She made a very bad mistakes:
1- In an OpenGL course, she was writing some code, and it was something like this:
int x;
//Initialize hardware functions (which are not using x at all).
int y;
So a friend of my just wrote it like this:
int x,y;
//Initialize hardware functions
She came and made a fight with him that he's writing code from his mind and that he's wrong because his change will not print the same output, WOW
2- She was writing a cube coordinates in the local coordinates (it's the 1,-1 coordinates), she wrote the Z value for the front face and back face with depth value of 1 for both, my friend told here that when we draw this because the Z values are the same, and so no depth, it'll be a square not a cube, she made another fight with him and told him that he doesn't understand anything and no way he'll know more than her and some shit like this!!!
Now do you really still thinking that someone like her when she become a doctor she will make the college level better?!!
I don't think so by any mean!!
The problem here that to become a TA you don't need to be smart or to have knowledge of anything, if you just have a good memory, then you got it!
Salam 3alikom.I just think that when you wrote that blog,you meant any college not CS particularly.
So anyway I agree with every point you wrote and you're 100% right and I would like to share with you all this piece of an article:
إننا اليوم وبعد55 عاما علي الثورة نلمس تطورا حقيقيا في خدمات التعليم الذي مازال مجانا من المدرسة إلي الجامعة لكل المصريين. وبالرغم من القصور الذي تعانيه العملية التعليمية فإننا يجب أن نعترف بأن مايحدث في مصر الآن من حيث التعليم المتاح لكل الطبقات أصبح غير موجود في أي مكان آخر حتي في الدول الشيوعية. فالتعليم له تكلفته العالية, وهذا واضح في الصين مثلا وفي كل دول العالم.
وإذا اتجهنا للتغيير من الكم إلي الكيف.. ومن الإتاحة الي الجودة.. فإنه يجب أن يشارك القادرون في ذلك بتحمل بعض التكلفة في التعليم.. وعلينا أن نبحث عن الأساليب التي تكفل قصر التعليم المجاني علي الفقراء فقط.. ولانهدر مواردنا بالصورة التي نراها الآن والتي تترك آثارها علي العملية التعليمية ونوعيتها, وتؤدي إلي ظهور أمراض خطيرة كالدروس الخصوصية وغيرها.
ana fi hayati mashoftish kalam motnakid zai dah ye2olel kilma 2aw el gomla we yerga3 ye2ol 3aksaha haga te3'iz
This is the link for the whole article if anyone "3ayez yetshal aktar we aktar"
http://www.ahram.org.eg/Index.asp?CurFN=MKAL1.HTM&DID=9285
I'm sorry for being late to comment on this post, but I just read it.
When talking about education problem in Egypt, we must take it from all sides. Let's take the individual as a point to discuss. He is here the student of course. The college is a late stage in his life. What about his education process through his life from the first year to the secondary stage? Most of the education process depends on filling the student's brain with amount of data, waiting for the moment to extract this heavy data into exam's paper. And on that base, he is evaluated. Yes, my friends. That why we felt with comfort when we finish an exam, even we don't know the result. We freed our brain from a heavy amount of data. This nature of education is out of our choice. We just found it as is.
All that relate with the education system in the school. What at home? Parents do not relate at all (at leats most of them) with what their son is learning. Either before he joins a school, while he is a young kid, they do not plan the way he is gaining different experiences from the world around him. Home environment participates in this problem. Also most of families lost the values that an indidvdual must have in his life. To have an objective in life, to plan to succeed, and so on. That's why a student in faculties like Commerce and Law are interested only in fashion, latest songs, and relarions with other sex.
What in college? I'll talk from my practical experiment, as a graduate of FCSI. In fact, I passed all my education before college as I said. But I loved programming so much while I was in my secondary stage. So I planned to join the FCSI, in Mansoura. And I did. I'll take this faculty as a study case. I was looking for being a computer expert or talented programmer as I dreamed in my scondary stage. I thought of the faculty as a research environment that will produce a good programmer. But the following:
1. From education point of view, what may seem to be a good research education process, ends to the same as secondary school, memorize required data to extract in the exam's paper. That was in Mansoura, I heard that there was better conditions in universities like Ain Shams. In fact, the better to memorize, the higher the grade you have. That's why I found the education staff chosen from our year are weak in programming essentials, but they were the best in memorizing information. Those will be future prof. of the faculty.
2. Bad structure of the faculty itself, where doctors along with managerial staff (most of them) work only for their personal benefits. Also theft of faculty budgets, which affects the development of it.
I think that it's a black image. For me, I realized the truth, and tried to build myself. Even you worked hard yourself, it will not like having instructoins from experts. So when I got out to the real world career, I found differences. But because I loved programming so much, I concentrated on building a good base that makes me flixible to obtain new career environment.
At all, it's a complicated problem, which I call Educatiom Problem in Egypt. So we need to solve all that sides to really have good educated youth, that they can make a better future for our home, Egypt.
For me it's really easy, when I choose X them I must commit to X, when I choose computer science I must commit to computer science, it doesn't make any sense for me to join computer science while I hate computers, if it's just about completing my education and get a degree, then I can join any other college, but to join a special college like CS I must commit to it regardless of the previous education.
I know some about working environment of FCSI at Ain Shams university. Believe me, if you compare it with what was in Mansoura, we have nothing. I was having to do every thing myself. Our teaching staff was very bad. Most of them from other faculties like Sciences, Commerce and Engineering. There is no a didecated building for the faculty until now. They started building it when we joined (at 1998), and until now, it's not finished. Also the IT environment in Cairo has a great difference than in Mansoura. Mansoura just started to build a good IT market a year ago. I'm graduated in 2002, finished my military service in early 2004. While I was in the army, I knew that the world outside is going fast, and I worked hard to suit it. And thanks Allah who helped me.
Believe me Meshref, building yourself in an environment like Mansoura is not easy as it in Cairo, especially Ain Shams Univ. I wished to be in it, but it was difficult. You know? When I first saw your blog and CV in 2005, I was amazed for such a CV for a just graduated student. But for your early education process, and Ain Shams Univ., and, over all, you of course, it's normal to be like that.
Any way, I go on. In fact the most spread market in our region (Egypt and Gulf) is Web development. I'm developing using ASP.NET. But I'm not satisfied with that level. Web development here is limited. No creation at all. After a year or two, every thing is repeating. I think that you may have an idea about that, even if you left Egypt after graduation.
I know that I have to pay more effort, but you are limited to your career and environment that you work in. And your career is controlled by your personal needs in life, money.
Since April 2006, I became a manager and team leader for a branch of an average Saudi IT company in Mansoura. It may be a success, with being a leader of a branch, and having a heavy sallary. But I miss having management essentials from an expert, because I was just a developer in normal company, which was very poor in organizing work. I have to try and obtain every thing myself. Well it's good. But having the right way from the experts is better. Some months ago, I was impressed with mobile programming in Symbian environment. But it does not exist in our region, and I have to spend my time in what I have a job.
Well, I talked a lot, but I'm still unsatisfied with what I achieved after more than 3 years of work.
What do you think? Is it my fault, or the environment around me? I just like to share my thoughts with you.
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